The Interview was conducted in English, translated to Chinese by myself, and published in Chinese on DeepFocus. 9190 views.

2019-06-19
Interviewer: Jiexiao Ying

During Tribeca Film Festival in New York, women audience across the world finds the documentary Leftover Women(2019) relatable. It focuses on the life choices of three career women in China’s big cities, under the pressure of the label “leftover women.” Huamei is a 34-year-old Beijing lawyer, and her parents in the rural area expect her to get married anxiously. Min is a 28-year-old broadcast hostess, and she is also under pressure and starts actively participating in dating events, but her parents of government official backgrounds, always feel her date not good enough. Qi is a 36-year-old associate professor, who is on the fast track of getting married and raising a kid, but her parents feel her husband’s family not economically compatible, and her mother-in-law feels obliged to lie about her age in front of relatives and friends. Both parts feel compromised.

Shosh Shalm and Hilla Medalia are two Isareal directors for Leftover Women. Their previous documentary Web Junkie (2013) was also shot in China, selected to World Cinema Documentary Competition and nominated for the Jury Award at 2014 Sundance Film Festival. Now they are concerned about the challenging situation faced by educated women, and focus on the group labeled as “leftover women” in China. This is not only about the conflict between the modern value of pursuing personal achievement and traditional value of fulfilling the expectation of the family, but also a misleading label attached to Chinese women by the government to deal with the gender imbalance resulted from One-Chine Policy. Interestingly, Leftover Women is not only related to One China Nation(2019) in the topic, but also the co-director of the latter participated in the production of the former. On April 27th, DeepFocus interviewed the directors of Leftover Women in order to understand women’s status from a cross-cultural perspective, and know the behind-the-scenes stories.

Vivian: Why did you decide to focus on “leftover women”? When did you have the idea?

Shosh Shlam: We made a previous film, Web Junkie, about the internet addiction camp in China. After the screening in Sundance, I said we have to go back and she said no way, my father will have killed me if I go to make another film.

Hilla Medalia: I had little kids and went to shoot in China. It’s hard to leave. It’s very rare for Israel filmmakers to shoot outside. Most films are shot in the country. We are the only one to work outside the country and go to China.

Shosh: Web Junkie brought us to come back to China to make another film. In 2015, the five activists try to put stickers against sexual harassment before the international women’s day. This was an alert for us and we were very curious to check out women rights in China. It was shocking that they were arrested for 37 days.

Hilla: In China, we came across this phenomenon of “Leftover Women” that we did not know about.

Vivian: You don’t have such anxiety at Israeli?

Hilla: There is, but it is different. It is a lot more pressure to have kids than marriage. But not at 25. It depends on where. Of course, at the ultra-orthodox, the more traditional communities, there is a lot of pressure, there is much matchmaking, etc. In other places, that pressure comes much later when women get closer to 37. When you are 37 and you don’t have kids, that becomes anxiety.

Shosh: But in the ultra-orthodox community, when you are 17, your parents will go to a matchmaker and find a husband for you. It is not about getting married. It is about becoming a mother. If you are not a mother, he will in trouble. They follow their commandment to be fruitful and multiply. This is for the men, but you need a woman to complete this commandment. If you cannot have children, by the way, according to the law, then the man will divorce you.

Vivian: It is interesting the pressure is on children.

Hilla: The difference is that the pressure is from the government. In 2007, the government comes up with a term, “leftover woman,” and added it to the dictionary because they have demographic problems, 30 million more man than women due to the one-child policy. This is a threat to the government in terms of stability.

Shosh: Then there is an organized campaign by the government with sexist messages. This is the revival of gender inequality. It is both the traditional point of view and the political point of view.

Hilla: The traditional point of view always pressure women to get married. There is obviously extra pressure in modern time: a successful and well-educated woman get married later. That is a global phenomenon because they are focusing on their career.

Shosh: In either way, women in the stories are “victims” either to politics and conventions.

Hilla: I want to point out that the pressure on women exists everywhere. For instance, I have two little kids and come to Tribeca and then to Hotdocs in Canada. Everybody else was asking me, what about kids? How do you leave them for so long? But when my husband travels, they never ask. I think this pressure on women in China is exaggerated and of course, the government makes it a lot stronger. A lot of women in other parts of the world like us really relate to Chinese women and their struggle because there are some similarities in what is happening everywhere.

Vivian: I am really impressed by the term “marriage market.” I think you are intrigued by the term too. I wonder how you feel for the subjects when they encounter such hostile terms. For instance, in the opening sequence, the 34-year-old lawyer Huamei encounters the negative remark from a matchmaker.

Shosh: We feel very bad. When the matchmaker told Huamei“you are not pretty enough,” we were shocked. We asked our assistant “what is going on? How can she insult her in this way?” She said, “It is not insulting in China. My mother used to tell me for years that I am not beautiful.” We thought okay, we are from a different culture. But we felt she insulted her by saying “you are not beautiful. You are old.”

Hilla: I think Huamei was under tremendous pressure. I think she is also a winner. She has a very strong spine. She wants to get married and she doesn’t want to compromise. She wants to find someone she loves and loves her. I envy her.

Vivian: The three women you present have different personalities and choices. They present a whole picture of the “leftover women” phenomenon. How did you find them? Did you reach out to other women too?

Shoch: We met many. When we advertised it on Weibo, the Chinese Twitter, many came. But some came just to share their stories, they really didn’t want to be filmed. Some wanted to be filmed but their families didn’t agree to be filmed. Because it is a shame. I mean, if you are not married, you are a “failure.” It’s very weird because you are pushed to study, and when you finish your study, you are pushed back to the family.

That’s not enough that you graduate from the university. What is interesting is that Huamei, on the one hand, says “I don’t belong here,” because she was the only one from her family to go to a university; on the other hand, she will listen to her family what they say. She told us she had a boyfriend. She asked him “Do you love me?” He said, “I don’t dislike you.” She brought him home, and the mother said, “if you marry this guy, I am not your mother anymore.” So she broke up with him.

Hilla: The dissonance is interesting. On the one hand, she does want wants. But on the other hand, she really respects and obeys her parents. The complexity of her character is interesting.

Shoch: We heard it more than once that Chinese children “owe their lives to their parents.”

Vivian: I felt that way too. My parents invest so much money and energy on us and even sacrifice their own personal lives for us. So there is no way we can really disobey them. If we do things we like and they don’t like it, it is not blessed. I feel the fight between the mother and daughter in the film are so real, how did you manage to capture that?

Hilla: Huamei has a really strong connection to us I think her mother sees that. Min’s mom always tells her that no one is good enough. Hopefully, she will accept someone.

Vivian: Did you want to interact with the subject and tell her what you think how to be happier and talk to their parents? Or you tried to stay away from it?

Hilla: I mean we give them support when they want.

Shoch: Staying away from it. I don’t think it’s right to be involved, because we come from another culture. Everything we are saying now comes from respect. Huamei is now in Germany. She finished her master and received an offer. She is in Berlin trying to build her life there. We hope she will succeed. For her, the victory is leaving China. “I am two years out of China.” She sees it as a victory.

Vivian: I see that too. There are people who succeeded and who seemed to fail, as the obedient girl.

Shoch: Failure is a strong word. I don’t think she failed either. This is part of judging and telling them what to do. I think our job is to look at them and learn from them. Of course, we are there for whatever they need, but I also think what’s right and successful is based on individuals, and everyone has a path.

Vivian: But I sense that you favor the strong character like Huamei. It’s more interesting to see the development of her characters.

Shoch: It’s not about favor.

Hilla: It’s more about a complete story. We have spent more time with Huamei than others, so her story is more complete and sophisticated. We planned this way: not anyone is getting the same time in the film. We want a protagonist and have two others to complete the whole story.

Shoch: For instance, Huamei comes from the village, and the other two from the city.

Hilla: Min’s parents are government officials, and Qi’s family are intellectuals. You can see different points of views.

Vivian: There is a photographer named Fan Jian in the film. Is he a documentary filmmaker? His name looks familiar to me.

Hilla: Yes! Two years ago he made a documentary, Still Tomorrow(2016), about a very famous poet in China. It was screened at IDFA and won Special Jury Award. He is more known as a documentary filmmaker in China. But for living, he is also filming for others, like us.

Shoch: It was a pleasure to work with him. He is a director and knows where to look at. He was really helpful. Because we don’t understand mandarin, we work with fixers, people who translate. But you cannot translate every single word as they are happening if there is a scene you need to be quiet. We work with a really great Chinese crew who we can really trust.

Hilla: He was leaning forward. You can meet a photographer who would do what you ask him or her to do, but he was more involved. The first time we showed up in the village, they asked us to leave after two hours. The sister got very angry and suddenly she said: “what are you doing here?” She said to Huamei “I want them to leave.” Fan Jian said, “guys, we have to leave.” We said, “what do you mean we have to leave?” We flew from Isareali, 5 hours on the road from Beijing to this village. What do you mean we have to leave? This was the first time that we realized we were not in our own country, and we have to respect the culture. I would say “let’s wait a minute. She might calm down and we can talk to her.”

Vivian: Fan Jian knows the culture and how severe the situation was.

Hilla: Exactly. So we left. Of course, it was a big disappointment of that day. Let’s wait for the next day. The next day we came again and the sister was not there. The father apologized to us, and said: “I am so sorry.” And he brought us fruit and cooked. He felt ashamed.

Shoch: It’s really important to feel these people’s feelings and sensitivity. For us, especially when we were in another country, it was important to have people with this level of sensitivity.

Hilla: In our culture, we can ask “what do you mean we have to leave?”

Shoch: You are exaggerating. Come on!

Hilla: But we have more confidence. We speak the language and we will try to convince.

Shoch: You know how we say as a documentary filmmaker. If somebody doesn’t open the door, we come from the window.

Vivian: I want to know a bit more about how you overcome the language barrier. Do you do an immediate translation on the set? And I heard at DOC NYC some documentary filmmakers just observe people’s body language, forgot about the language, and found subtlety.

Shoch: Sometimes. We have a translator, but you cannot translate everything. We know the general meaning. This is not our first time in China. When we see the footage later with all the subtitles, we really understand the nuance of every word said.

Hilla: On the spot, when the scene started, and we were giving general direction. After a while, we stopped and looked. That was not after every sentence. But after a while, you stopped and wanted to know if they followed your direction, or sometimes you let them go in their own direction.

Shoch: I think the bottom line was working with people you trust. For the years working in China, we have our own people.

Vivian: During the shooting, were you ever afraid that these women did not find a solution? Was it hard to find an ending for the documentary?

Shoch: I didn’t think each of them has to get married. When you were telling the story, there was a moment when you felt some development in their lives could serve as an ending. For example, with Huamei, when she decided to go to study abroad, we felt that symbolized how much pressure she had and she was looking for another lifestyle.

Hilla: With Qi, the woman who got married, she said: “I didn’t think about a happy ending.” Is her getting married a happy ending? Maybe for some, but not for her, because she compromised when she got to marry this boy, 7 years elder than her. He comes from the village. She was born to an intellectual family and she is an assistant professor at a university. You follow their journey and they are still looking for an ending, which is also an ending.

Vivian: I like the question mark put at the end. She didn’t confirm that she had a happy marriage. She said, “I fooled my husband by giving him a baby.”

Shoch: When Hilla and I started filming Qi, things went quickly. She met him, got married, and got pregnant. At first, we were worried. Oh God was it a good thing for our topic? Then we decided to go with it, which shows a bigger picture of the educated, successful career women in big cities in China.

Hilla: What is the ending? This sometimes bothers me. I know that the audience likes a fairly structured story with a beginning and an end. But sometimes, when you leave something that is open, that is not bad. When I saw Huamei going to the bars at night, sitting lonely, for me, it is an end too. That means she is continually looking and pressured by conventions. If nothing specific happens to her and that is the end, I can be fine with it. Now Huamei left because she suffered, but she might go back. Qi got married and Min was still looking for a boyfriend.

Shoch: These three stories together compile this reflection of the phenomenon. It is about China and women in China, but westerners can relate to a lot of stories.

中国式“剩女”羞辱

纽约翠贝卡电影节期间，《剩女》（Leftover Women）的纪录片让各地女性观众感到共鸣。纪录片讲述中国大城市里三位职业女性在“剩女”标签的威胁下，面对婚恋压力做出的选择。Huamei是34岁的北京律师，乡下的家人催婚催得紧。Min是一位28岁的电台主播，感到时间不多，积极参与相亲活动，而公务员父母对未来女婿有高要求。Qi是36岁的副教授，迅速进入了结婚育儿的轨道，但是父母觉得门户不对等，婆婆向亲朋好友隐瞒媳妇的年龄，双方都觉得做了妥协。

《剩女》纪录片的两位以色列导演Shosh Shlam和Hilla Medalia，曾拍摄中国戒网瘾中心的纪录片《网瘾》（2014），获得圣丹斯电影节世界电影单元纪录片的“评委会大奖”提名。如今中国受教育女性面临的窘境，让她们把目光投向“剩女”群体。这不仅是追求个人成就的现代价值和完成家族期待的传统价值的冲撞，更是独生子女政策导致性别失衡后政府给予的标签。有趣的是，《剩女》不仅在议题上与《独生子女国度》（One Child Nation）相关，后者的联合导演Jialing也参与了前者的拍摄。2019年4月27日，深焦在Roxy Hotel采访了《剩女》导演，了解跨文化视角下的女性处境以及拍摄的幕后故事。

深焦：为什么选择聚焦“剩女”的话题？什么时候产生的兴趣？

Shosh Shlam: 我们之前在中国拍摄了一部纪录片《网瘾》（2014）。影片在圣丹斯放映后，我觉得要回到中国继续观察。Hilla说不行，家里有两个小孩，离开很困难，丈夫强烈反对。

Hilla Medalia：对，以色列导演很少出国拍摄，大多数影片都是国内完成的。我们是唯一的一组出国来中国拍片的导演。在中国的时候，我们遇到了“剩女”的现象，这是从前我们不了解的。

Shosh：所以《网瘾》把我们带回中国。2015年国际妇女节前夕，五位行动主义者发起反性骚扰活动，被刑事拘留37天，我们很震惊，打算了解中国的女性权益。

深焦：在以色列的女性有没有“剩女”的焦虑？

Hilla：以色列有，但是情况不同，焦虑的重心是生育而不是结婚。还要看女性所处的区域。如果在比较传统的社群，女性会有很大的压力，有不少人做媒。在其他区域，焦虑来得迟一些。女性如果到37岁左右还没有孩子，会开始紧张。

Shosh：是的，在极端正统犹太教地区，女孩17岁的时候，父母会找媒人帮忙择婿。女性的压力不是结婚，而是做母亲。因为戒律里要求信徒繁衍，子孙众多。虽然这是对男性的要求，但是需要女性来共同完成。换句话说，如果妻子不能生育，丈夫可以休妻。

Hilla：另外，中国“剩女”的压力部分来自政府。2007年，中国教育部把“剩女”作为了汉语新词，2010年，政府宣传“女性在27岁前结婚”的婚恋状况调查结论。由于独生子女政策，男人比女人多3000万，政府认为这成了威胁社会稳定的隐患。同时，传统观点总是把女性推入婚姻。因此，现代女性要承受更多的压力：为了关注自身职业发展，一位受过良好教育的成功女性结婚更迟。

Shosh：《剩女》中的3位女性就是政治观念和传统看法的“受害者”。

Hilla：其实全球女性都面临相似压力。比如我家里有两个小孩子，我来纽约的翠贝卡电影节或者加拿大的Hotdocs国际纪录片电影节的时候，每个人都问我：“孩子怎么办？你怎么能把他们扔在家里那么久？”可是我的丈夫出差的时候，没人问他这个问题。我觉得中国女性承担的压力更多，但是世界各地的女性，都对中国女性的故事有共鸣，因为我们面临相似的难题。

深焦：我对片中对话屡屡出现的“婚姻市场”一词感兴趣，我想你们可能也很震惊。我想知道当片中女性遇到一些不友好的概念，会有什么感受？例如影片开头，34岁的律师Huamei受到相亲公司的负面评价。

Shosh：我们觉得很糟糕，很震惊媒人会和Huamei说：“你不够好看，年纪又大了。”我们问中国助手“发生了什么？为什么媒人要羞辱她？”助手说：“这在中国算不上羞辱。我妈几年来一直告诉我，我长得不好看。”我们想了想，大概是不熟悉这里的文化背景。

Hilla：我觉得Huamei承受了特别大的压力。同时，她也是个胜利者，很有骨气，想结婚但是不妥协。她希望能找到自己喜欢也喜欢自己的人。我有点羡慕她。

深焦：影片中的三位女性有不同的个性和选择，多角度呈现了“剩女”现象。请问你们是如何寻找和确定被摄者的？

Shoch：当时我们在微博发消息，来了很多人。不过有些人只是愿意说说故事，不想被拍摄；有些人愿意被拍摄，但是家人不同意，因为“剩女”对于一些家庭来说是一个“耻辱”，女大未婚仿佛是人生的“失败”。其实这很奇怪，小时候你要专心学习，不能为恋爱分心，一旦毕业了，又被催婚，组建家庭。对于女性来说，从大学毕业还不够。Huamei是家里唯一上了大学的人，她说：“我不属于这里。”但是在婚姻上，她还得听从家人的意见。她说自己曾有一个男友，当她问对方“你爱我吗？”男友说“我不讨厌你。”她把男友带回了家，妈妈说：“如果你和这个男的结婚，我就和你断绝母子关系。”Huamei就分了手。

Hilla：Huamei性格里的矛盾面很有趣，一方面做自己想做的事情，一方面也要尊重父母，服从他们的意见。在中国的时候，我们不止一次听到大家说自己“生命是父母给的，欠父母太多”。

深焦：是的，因为父母把大量的钱财和精力投注在我们身上，为了孩子牺牲私人生活，所以孩子们很难不服从父母的意愿，所谓父母反对的婚姻不受祝福的。在影片中，我看到女儿和母亲的争吵特别真实，女儿哭诉“你总是控制我，从来不听我说什么。”你是如何捕捉到这个激烈的情境的？

Hilla：Huamei和我们的关系很好，Huamei的母亲能看到这点。的妈妈总是说这个男人不够好。我们希望她妈妈最终能接受某个人。

深焦：你们会和被摄者有更深接触吗，会和她们交流怎样变得更开心，怎样和父母交流吗？还是你们会保持纪录片导演和被摄者的距离？

Hilla：她们需要的话，我们会给予帮助。

Shoch：通常保持距离，因为我们来自不同的文化背景，可能不适合介入。我们现在说的所有话都是出于对被摄者生活的尊重。Huamei现在正在德国，她完成了法国的硕士学位，收到了德国的offer，目前在柏林建立自己的生活。我们希望她能顺利。对于她来说，离开中国就是胜利，“我已经离开中国两年了”。

深焦：的确是一种胜利。但是片中的另外两位女性Min和Qi似乎“失败”了，尤其是服从母亲权威的广播电台女孩Min。

Shoch：“失败”用词太重了，我不觉得她们失败了。衡量她们是否成功好像在裁决她们的行为，告诉她们有一条所谓对的路。我觉得我们的工作是观察和学习，当然她们遇到困难，我们可以时刻帮助。我觉得每个人都有自己的道路，关于成功有自己的定义。

深焦：不过我感到你们更青睐性格鲜明的Huamei，她的个人故事发展非常有趣。

Hilla：这和“青睐”无关，而是整体故事结构的安排。我们和Huamei共处的时间比其他被摄者长，所以她的故事最完整、最复杂。我们打算这么安排：每个人的镜头时间不同，有一个主角，以及其他两位人物来完成这个现象的整体呈现。

Shoch：Huamei来自乡村，Min和Qi来自城市。

Hilla：Min的父母是公务员，Qi的家人是知识分子，你可以看到不同的观念。

深焦：片尾演职人员表里我看到摄影师范俭的名字，他本人也是纪录片导演对吗？

Hilla：是的！两年前，范俭拍了一部关于中国乡村女诗人的纪录片（《摇摇晃晃的人间》），影片在阿姆斯特丹国际纪录片电影节（IDFA）首映，获得了评委会大奖。他在中国已经是一位出名的纪录片导演，但是为了生计，他也会给其他团队做摄影师。

Shoch：我们和范俭工作得非常愉快。他有导演经验，知道摄像机该对准哪里。他对我们的帮助非常大。我们不会说普通话，不可能现场翻译每一个词句，所以我们和非常出色、值得信赖的中国团队合作。

Hilla：范俭倾心帮助我们。你可以聘请摄影师，指示他该做什么，但是范俭投入了更多。我们第一次来到Huamei的村子，两个小时之后，她的家人就要求我们离开。她的姐姐很生气，突然说：“你们为什么来这里？”她告诉Huamei：“我要他们离开。”范俭说：“我们得走了。”我们纳闷：“什么意思？这就走了？”我们大老远地从以色列飞来，坐了5个小时的车从北京到村子里，现在就让我们走，是什么意思？我们想了想，不在自己的国家，得尊重当地习惯。如果在自己国家，我可能会说“等一等，也许姐姐会平静下来，我们可以继续交流。”我们离开了，当天很沮丧。等到第二天，我们又来了，姐姐正好不在。Huamei的父亲不停向我们道歉，拿水果，煮菜给我们吃。他觉得很不好意思。

Shoch：在拍摄现场，了解人们的情绪和感受是非常重要的。对于我们来说，身处异国，特别需要有人对情感的微妙变化保持敏锐。

Hilla：在我们的国家，我会问：“你说让我们走是什么意思？”

Shoch：哎，太夸张啦！

Hilla：至少我有更多信心，我可以用母语尝试说服拍摄对象。

Shoch：对的，作为纪录片导演，你知道我们常说的：如果有人不愿开门，你就从窗户进去。

深焦：我想多了解你们克服语言障碍的过程，我在DOC NYC听说有些纪录片导演放弃语言翻译，只观察人们的身体语言，看到微妙的表达。

Shoch：有时候我们有译者，但是在一些场合不能出声，也不能逐字逐句翻译，在拍摄中知道一个大概就好。这不是我们第一次来中国。后期制作还在弄，我们看到带字幕的素材时，就了解了每个词的微妙内涵。

Hilla：在现场，摄影机开始工作的时候，我们给出大致的拍摄方向。过了一会儿，我们停下来看素材。当然不是每句一停，但是每过一会儿，我们会停下来看看拍摄是不是按照预想的方向进行，有时候也会让他们按着自己的思路走。

深焦：拍摄期间，你们会不会担心这些女性没有找到自己的解答？为这部纪录片找到一个结尾是否困难？

Shoch：作为结尾，我不觉得三位女性都需要结婚。在讲述一个故事的时候，你会感到某个时刻，她们生活中的一些进展可以作为影片的结尾。比如Huamei打算出国留学，那体现了她所面临的巨大压力，以及她在寻找另一种生活方式。

Hilla：Qi结婚了，但是她说“我不觉得这是一个快乐结局。”结婚意味着幸福吗？对于一些人来说是的，但是对于她来说，她在婚姻中做出了一些妥协。你跟随她们的生命之旅，她们在寻找结局，这本身也是一种结局。

深焦：我喜欢影片最后给大家留下的问号，没有给出唯一正确的答案，每个人都有不同的选择。

Shoch：我和Hilla开始拍摄Qi的时候，事情接二连三地发生。她遇见了现在的丈夫，结婚，怀孕。刚开始我们有点紧张。天哪，这是不是一件好事？接下来我们决定跟着事件走，把她的故事包括进来，因为这有助于呈现这个群体的大背景，也就是中国大城市里受教育的成功职业女性。

Hilla：我知道观众喜欢一个结构完整的故事，有头有尾。但是有时候开放式结局也很好。当我看到Huamei深夜出没酒吧，孤寂地坐着，对我来说，这也是一种结局。那意味着她仍旧在寻找，仍旧受到习俗的压力。即便此后没有发生任何事件，这个结局对我来说也是成立的。现在的结局是Huamei离开了中国，但是她可能回来。Qi结婚了，Min还在寻找母亲满意的男友。

Shoch：三个故事共同构成了对“剩女”现象的反思。这是关于中国和中国女性的故事，但是西方观众也能在故事里找到共鸣。
-FIN-

深焦DeepFocus为今日头条特约作者